Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: I’ve been having some very interesting conversations lately with both Gen Z missionaries and those who lead Gen Z missionaries, and hearing some really different perspectives from the leaders. I’m hearing things like this generation does not have a work ethic. You know, “When I was their age, I did whatever it took to get the job done.” “You’re done when you’re done,” or “Why do they ask so many questions all the time? Why don’t they just do what I’m asking them to do? Why so much pushback, or what is up with this lack of motivation? They seem to always wanna do things, on their terms, and when they want to. Not to mention their obsession with mental health and boundaries.” 

Then, on the other hand, Gen Z missionaries, hearing things like, “My leader cares way more about what I do than who I am, and it’s all about production and drive and work, and this is how people end up in burnout. I have seen enough leaders fail. I’m not gonna be one of them because God cares about me. He wants me to live a sustainable life. He wants me to take care of myself as I’m serving others, so I don’t end up in burnout. I don’t wanna lose my soul. I don’t wanna lose my family. Pretty sure that’s not what God wants or. Is this it? Is this what being a missionary looks like? Is this all there is?” Also, this generation is dealing with overwhelm more than any other generation we’ve seen before.

So how can we help Gen Z and learn from them? Because they have some amazing things to teach us as well. And all you and Gen Zers said amen. So my guest today is Dr. Tim Elmore. He is a brilliant leadership expert. We’ve had him on before we had to bring him back on. He’s John Maxwell’s former missions pastor, an author of the Future Begins with Z, and he’s about to answer that very question and drop some insights I had not heard before that I think are really gonna profoundly change the way that you see Gen Z and relate to them. So, Gen Z, leaders of Gen Z. Let’s jump into today’s episode.

Tim, it is so good to have you back with us. Thanks for joining us today.

Tim Elmore: Oh, Stephanie, it’s great. I look forward to this conversation. We always have a good time.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: We do have a good time, don’t we? I feel the same way, and we’re gonna have some more fun today as we talk about Gen Z and those who lead them. And Tim, you know, I was thinking I’ve had multiple conversations lately with missionaries both. Gen Z team leaders who are really struggling to understand one another.

They all feel called, they’re passionate, they wanna work together, but there’s just some clashes going on. There’s one leader who is saying, you know, I can’t figure out if these Gen Zs are just unmotivated or overwhelmed. I don’t know what’s going on. Then on the other side, you’ve got Gen Z missionaries saying, I thought being here on the field was gonna be a totally different experience, and I feel like I’m just really.

Butting heads with the people that I’m serving, and they expect so much from me. I mean, these, these two different perspectives, and I’d love to just even start by asking for your personal question was, was there a moment in your own journey with Gen Z where you thought, okay, this generation’s wired in a completely different way than past generations?

Tim Elmore: That’s a great question. Well, I think we talked about this the last time we were together. I actually think I first noticed that I might need to change the way I connect with Gen Z when I felt like I was in front of 18-year-olds, it felt like a cross-cultural interaction, you know? So, missionaries everywhere will say, I understand that. But it was my own team that was 19 years old. Some of them were interns, some were full-time staff, and they were saying no to tasks that needed to be done. And I’m thinking, “Who says no to the boss? You know?” It’s a new day. 

And by the way, here’s what I understood along the way. I’m just gonna cut to the chase. All behavior has a reason. All conduct has context that explains it, even if you don’t agree with it. Just knowing why they might have said that or done that just helps empathize more. So I will say right from the beginning, Stephanie, I am a believer in Gen Z. I am biased toward them, but not until I did this research that I really began to say, “Oh, of course you’re different.” So I’m ready for a conversation. But I just wanna tell you listeners, you’re about to hear a biased man who loves this next generation, even though they’re different. 

I wanna say something, I put in the very beginning of the book that I chuckle at every time I read those words. Here it is: Generation Z is the sandpaper on my leadership. I did not know I needed it. Isn’t that good? It was a friend of mine who said it, and I said, “Theresa, can I use that phrase?” Gen Z is the sandpaper. A little friction there on my leadership that’s polishing me up. 

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: I love that quote.

Tim Elmore: They will make us better leaders because they won’t put up with some stuff that we maybe did 15, 20 years ago, and we shouldn’t have. But now they will say, “No more.” And I think we’re gonna need to make some changes. 

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: You are so right. And those tensions really do provide an opportunity. And you have so many great things you mentioned in your book, and I love the title two, the, the Future starts with Z. It’s, it’s just. It’s so great, and there are so many things that we’ll get into that you mentioned, of ways that sandpaper can really sharpen leaders, and for Gen Z, how to be really kind, sandpaper all at the same time.

Tim Elmore: Nice sandpaper.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Yeah. And Tim, what were some of the things that begin to shift your perspective from that initial sandpaper to, oh, I think there’s something good here that could happen.

Tim Elmore: Well, early in the book, I share this story, and  I use a term that I’ve not heard anybody else use yet. It’s called the Peter Pan Paradox. No, we authors have used the term Peter Pan before, talking about a generation that doesn’t wanna grow up. But the Peter Pan paradox is, I think, something new that they bring to us on the job.

As missionaries or wherever they work. Well, first of all, you know the character Peter Pan, right? He was in that whimsical character in the book and the play, and the Disney movie that came out years ago. Peter Pan is this amazing boy who can fly through the air, do magical things, sprinkle pixie dust, and make things happen like nobody else can. The other side of the coin is that he wants to live in a Neverland where nobody has to grow up. We can stay a kid and not be responsible. So you see what I’m saying? There’s a plus and a minus. There’s something magical and tragic going on in this character. Here’s how I say it in the book. Consider this, listeners. The age of authority is decreasing, but the age of maturity is increasing. And that in itself can be frustrating. 

So let’s talk about both of those things for one minute. The age of maturity is going down. So they’re coming in with a savviness to smart technology to AI, to where the future’s going. They have an intuition about culture. I’m asking them all the time around our office, “What do you see coming? What do you see coming?” So there is that going on. The age of authority without any position is going down. But at the same time, those interpersonal skills, those soft skills, those people skills that we think are important to the kingdom, they’re not always there because they were on a screen all through high school or whatever.

So you can see those two things together and just create tension. So here’s my marching orders for everybody listening right now. If you turn this thing off right now, here are two things I want you to hear. Because of the age of authority and age of maturity factors, we are gonna have to listen to them more than we used to listen. And we’re gonna have to coach more than we used to coach. If we’re spiked up for that, I think we’re gonna be fine.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: That’s so good. And I wanna keep unpacking that a little bit more. First, I wanna ask you, what are some of the things that you’re hearing from leaders and hearing from Gen Zers as they’re struggling sometimes to communicate with one another?

Tim Elmore:  Yeah, well, I’m chuckling because I’m hearing lots of crazy stories, and I’m now going to self-select the ones that aren’t too derogatory on both sides. I mean, there’s frustration among the old and young. So an old person listening just knows they’re saying the same stories about us. So I have a dear friend who hired a Gen Z, or 22-year-old, right outta college, smart as a whip. She started coming in late to the meeting, and they thought, maybe she was just used to the college classroom, where you could come in late. And that sure enough was true. She had never been in a full-time job. Then she just seemed to disengage with her department or her team. She wasn’t really present, even though she was physically there. And when her supervisor eventually met with her and said, “Tell me what’s going on,” she felt attacked. “This is not psychologically safe here. I feel I’m being attacked.” And all he wanted to do was call her up to be the best version of herself. I mean, we all know that as leaders, you gotta be challenged, and that’s what leaders do.

So one big difference, and I do not mean to stereotype, is they’re coming in from a very different world where maybe they’ve never had a full-time job before. In fact, do you mind if I derail us just for a moment? 

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Do it.

Tim Elmore: I began to research work itself, and work and childhood were so different a hundred years ago. First of all, four-year-olds were doing age-appropriate chores around the house. Nine-year-olds were working the farm, and by 11, they were leading a chore on the farm. So it’s very, very different. By 1936, President Roosevelt put some child labor laws in place, as he should have. Some kids were being abused in factories and working too much, and so forth. But those took effect after World War II. Because we went to war in World War II. So by the 1950s, those laws began to really take effect. But what it did was put students with each other in a classroom more than with adults at work. Even though we might have worked at a fast food restaurant, it was part-time, and we were with other 16-year-olds.

So, the fact that their work experience might be very little, now they watch 17 YouTube videos about work or something like that. But I mean, you just build a little empathy; it doesn’t excuse it, but it does explain it. So I just feel like we’re gonna need to know, I need to start really, at the beginning, I’m not used to basketball, past beliefs shoot if I’m teaching you the game of basketball to them. So I’ll stop there, but I just think everybody listening, if you’re leading a Gen Z or just know I need to back up, do not assume anything. And then if they know hallelujah, that’s great. But if they don’t, you may need to explain, you need to look me in the eye and not use the screen, and you need to talk to me. I’m willing to talk, I wanna talk, but let’s talk. 

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: No, you bring up great points to my, I work as a leadership coach and have for years, and I would say probably half my clients are not very much not Gen Z, leading Gen Z, and they constantly, like, this is something they wanna process. Like I’m frustrated. They’re, they’re unmotivated, they’re not showing up.

They take these mental health days. I like, they don’t even care. They don’t seem to care about work. And it’s, it’s real frustrations. And it’s so good to hear those outfits. So for all of you listeners who are leading Gen Zers, we hear you. We see you. It’s real what you’re feeling. And as Tim, as you’re pointing out, there are some other things behind it.

And so I think that’s what we’ll get into a little later on, is how to pull them out. How to pull them up as you want to, as leaders, and really take advantage of the best that they have to offer and train them in some of the areas where they’re weak. And so as you’re talking to Gen Zs, what are you hearing from them, Tim?

Tim Elmore: Well, they can be as frustrated with us because they’re not familiar with the workaday world, and they’re going, “Why would you do it that way? Why would you not do it this way?” So let me give you a quick story that I tell early in the book that I think sets the stage for this answer. I have known Colin Webb since he was in high school some years ago. He was a very smart high school student, so he was invited to come to MIT for college, which was not a bad gig. So he goes four years, serving in the student government for all four years. You can imagine that when he graduated from MIT, he had several job offers. So Colin decided to go to Detroit, Michigan, and work at one of the Big Three General Motors, one of Big Three automakers.

Well, they put him in the Smart Car division. He’s a smart guy, but months into the job, he sees so many things that could be done better. After all, he’s young and has some ideas, but he was right. He said, “Oh my gosh, they weren’t doing any professional development. They could do PD better. They could do this system better. That strategy could be improved.” And so he takes these ideas to a supervisor and doesn’t realize how off-putting that might feel for a 22-year-old to bring to a 48-year-old, these brilliant ideas that he had. Well, Stephanie, his supervisor, just said, “Hey buddy, you just need to keep your nose to the grindstone, keep your head down, and do your work.” Well, Colin said, “Yes, sir, but he knew these were good ideas.” So, get this, Colin writes the CEO of General Motors, Mary Barra, and sends her an email with these good ideas listed out. She gets back to him. This was a shock to all. She replies and goes, “These are really good ideas. Let me take these to my executive team.”

She takes them to her executive team, and they all agree these are really good ideas. But as the ideas get pushed down the org chart, you can imagine they begin to die on the vine. As it gets to his supervisor, once again, he hears, “Hey buddy, just do your work.” In fact, he told Colin, “You have to be here eight years before you get to lead anything.” That’s how old school and with all due respect to GM, great cars are coming, just old school. So here’s the tragic part of the story. Colin doesn’t even stay a year. He quits. They lost this sharp young man. He has since become an entrepreneur, a serial entrepreneur. He started three companies, sold one of them. He’s doing quite well. And I would just say I think they both missed out on something, even though Colin’s doing fine and GM’s gonna make it, but they need those 20-somethings because they have visibility on the future; the age of authority is going down. And Collin’s a great example of that, I think.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: That’s a really powerful story. I think that illustrates just the miscommunication, misunderstanding on both sides. You know, as you’re talking to Tim, I’m thinking about Gen Z as a generation worldwide. So for our listeners that we’re gonna have our Gen Zs who are missionaries, who are becoming missionaries.

And then we’ve got two other categories that I’m thinking of. One would be Gen Z. So they were raised overseas. That would be, you know, my daughters, and I’m thinking of some of the ways in which she classically fits into Gen Z and other ways in which. Not so much ’cause she’s yet that third culture kid.

So she’s, and she’s got a really strong, strong work ethic, very motivated. And obviously, we’re making blanket statements that are, I don’t wanna say blanket statements, but we, generalizing for the sake of connecting with people. But then I’m also thinking about Gen Zs toowho aaremaybe not from the US or a Western culture, who have jobs when they’re kids, and how that might be impacted.

So, uh. Talk a little bit about the differences between the different types of Gen Z.

Tim Elmore: Well, those three you just listed are all true, and there are exceptions to every rule. So listeners, we talk now, not to stereotype, but to understand. So I just did an article where I talk about the three kinds of workers: white collar, blue collar, and no collar. Okay. There’s a lot of no-collar, right? They got a t-shirt 0, and they’re on tech, a nd they’re coming up with some app that they’re gonna monetize and become millionaires by 23 years old. So, and I say that tongue in cheek, but just like in every generation, there are different personalities and styles and types. Preferences. So I believe we need to practice an acronym that I put in the book.

If you’re about to, let’s say, interview a Gen Z for a ministry or a job, put the acronym for perks, P-E-R-K-S. I think we understand perks far too late in the job, and we need to understand them on day one. So let me tell you what perks stands for the letter p. Tell me or remind me, I need to understand their preferences. They come in with preferences. They’re very audacious. They have a high sense of agency when they come, and they’ll say no, and they’ll say, “I need a mental health day,” like you just referred to. So when I ask for preferences, I’m finding out I wish this were true. It’s not a deal breaker if it isn’t true, but I would like this to be true.

And maybe we go, oh my gosh, I didn’t know that. I think we can do that. But it’s good to find that out right away. The letter E is expectations. That’s a little stronger than preferences. Now they’re sharing. I’m assuming this will be true. And I think the first day, maybe the first week, we should find that out. Think about a workplace that finds that out a year later, and there’s division in the department. Because there’s gossip and rumors and bitterness and anger, because we didn’t talk about it before. So expectations are crucial; we just need to find them out. 

Now, here’s my theory on that one. Conflict expands based on the distance between expectations and reality. 

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Yes. That’s good.

Tim Elmore: I may have even shared this last time we were on. I’m so enthralled by this notion. If I tell my wife I’m gonna be home by seven for dinner, and I get home at 10 after seven, not a big deal. If I get home at 9:30, we had a long conversation about that, and it isn’t that she couldn’t live without me for two and a half hours because I do not expect that this is huge. Life is about managing expectations, and on the mission field, I’m telling you, you’re gonna have a lot of surprises. We tell short-term workers, we expect the unexpected. Everything’s gonna happen differently. But I wonder if the more you can cross that bridge upfront and just share with them. Find those things out, and the more surprises you’ll remove from the experience, which is a good thing.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Yes. And Tim, I have to mention you were a missions pastor for a while, so like you know what you’re talking about in the missions world for sure.

Tim Elmore: I worked with John Maxwell, believe it or not, and for years, I was a missions pastor. We were trying to plant churches and unreached people groups, and it was so much fun, but so much work. But even then, we had very different young missionaries from the older counterparts. So this gap has been around for a long time. 

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Sorry, I took off of P-E-R-K-S. Let’s get back to perks.

Tim Elmore: Okay. That’s okay. Letter R requirements. This is something that I’ve seen today that I’ve not seen in past generations. They come in with some demands and requirements of this workplace, and wouldn’t you think that with me, I’d better find those out during the interview, because I might have to say, I’m so sorry. This is never gonna happen here. Can I just assure you at the door and say, “I’ll pray for you because that’s just not gonna happen here.” Some of their demands are good. You just wish for them, here’s what I wish: I wish they wouldn’t put a preference in the language of a demand. Sometimes they come in with hyperbole or three exclamation points on the text message, all caps, and I’m going, “Do you really feel that strongly about this?” So I think we, both sides, need to temper our emotions. But if it’s a requirement, that’s good to talk about it now and see if that’s even possible. Alright, so preferences. Even stronger expectations. Even stronger requirements. The next letter is something I wish somebody had done with me early on.

The next word is keys. The keys to their heart. I think we need to not talk all the time about the workload and the work we’re gonna do together in the nine-to-five hours. I wanna find out what’s the, what makes you tick. Do you like dogs? Do you like sports? What do you want? What is it that makes you really tick? When I find that out, now I can talk to my people, not just about work things, but also about did you go to the game last night? Or, how was the rodeo? Or whatever. You know what I’m saying? 

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: And I would agree. You know, I hear a lot of times from Tim, I hear Tim from talking to Gen Z leaders. I’m sorry, not Gen Z leaders. I hear from talking to Gen Z’ers that sometimes I feel like they want me for the work that I can do, and they care more about what I do than who I am. And so this really addresses us.

That’s powerful.

Tim Elmore: Ease to their heart is crucial, I think, in my opinion, for leaders, and then I think it does, in fact, later I’d really like to talk to you about it. How the old view authority and how the young view authority are different. And if we don’t know that we can be ambushed by the young or the old, it would, depending on who we are. 

Okay, so the last letter in Perks, the letter S, is salary. Sometimes that doesn’t get thoroughly talked about until it’s a little late in the game, but I think it’s important that Gen Z comes in ready and wants to talk about that more than past young generations. I was just happy to be there. You know, interns make $200 a month. Fine. That’s great. But I think we need to be ready to talk honestly about that and say, “I wish it could be more. You certainly deserve more.” I think I do too. And then just say, let’s make this cause our compensation until we can continue to raise more money. Anyway, those items, there’s probably more than you bargain for in my answer there. They are just helpful conversations that I am learning from. Have them earlier rather than later in the relationship.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: That acronym is fantastic for both sides because for our Gen Z listeners, they can go in having thought through PER, the preferences, expectations, and requirements beforehand. And like you said, being able to put them in the right category, and maybe, for them, they can take those to somebody of a different generation, like a trusted mentor, and say, Hey, am I categorizing these right?

And somebody might be able to, like, you know, say, Hey. If that can’t be a requirement, that’s not gonna fly. But thinking it through beforehand would help them to be able to communicate that. And then I’m thinking for the leaders, interviewing them, thinking through how to structure that in an interview. So you’re.

Really hitting all those things. Well, I mean, that’s really good. And that’s why I really do encourage people to pick up the book because you go into all this, just into so much more depth on all of this, for people who wanna really put this into place. So, I’d love to go back a little bit now, to some of these differences that you’ve talked about.

How and why do these generations see the world so differently? Where’s that sandpaper coming from?

Tim Elmore: Well, one place I think we can most assuredly get to right away is social media. We spend time in echo chambers, so my kids are on different social media platforms than I am naturally. So I think the last time we talked about generations made this statement that the screens are in our lives. From my childhood to now, I have gone from public to private. So when I was a kid, we had one screen in our family room, it was a TV, and we all gathered around and watched something together and talked together about the show. Yeah. Now we have one screen, but it’s in our hands, and mom and dad are on a completely different set of content than their child is.

So that’s one big reason we see things differently, but here’s another. Think about Gen Z looking at the world, which is able to do this through this iPhone. They see failing leaders everywhere. 

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: You’re right.

Tim Elmore: I mean, everywhere. Now there are some successful ones too, no doubt about it, in the church, in the corporate world, in the government, in education, but they hear stories about failing priests and pastors; they hear about failing corporate America, greedy corporate America, and healthcare systems. “Oh my gosh, that’s broken government, oh, don’t even start.” The average age of Congress, I think, is in their seventies. So they see leaders failing and go, “Well, I don’t wanna be that, so get this.”

Of course, they don’t have a natural respect for leaders. They see so many who didn’t earn that respect. Do you follow me? Whether that’s right or not, or biblical or not, they just have a hard time respecting authority. 

So I would say, here’s another pithy phrase, Stephanie. We need to earn our authority through a bridge, not a badge. Meaning we’re building a bridge to them and to their heart and building a relationship. 

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: I love them. We need to earn authority through a bridge, not a badge. Meaning we’re building a bridge to them.

Tim Elmore: Remember what Brene Brown said: “It’s hard to hate people up close.” I just believe that even though they work with you, missionary leaders get to know them. Just forget talking about ministry for a while. Just talk about their hair, and they do love Jesus. But talk about a bunch of other things. I’m telling you, you’ll win them over. 

So I told you earlier, Stephanie, I wanna talk about authority. I see two columns in my head, and listeners, I’m gonna give you these two columns now verbally, even though I can’t do it visually. Older generations tend to see that our position gives us authority, right? You got a badge, you’re the president, you’re the chief of whatever, and that gives you authority. They would say that connection gives you authority. Connect with me, and we won’t disagree with that as Christ followers, but I got a badge on Bob. So here’s another one. We would say you need to be listening to the man at the top. And by the way, Stephanie, as you know, very often, it’s a man at the top. You need to be listening to the man at the top. They would say, the man at the top needs to be listening to us. We have visibility into the future. I don’t know what he does at 58. We would say, the older might say, “Well, the boss’s idea is the idea that wins.” They would say the best idea should win, and I think we can all see merit in this. Right.

The last one I’ll give you real quick is I, because I’m older and I was raised a certain way, tend to see the leader as a gatekeeper of the power. And they would say the leader should be a guide, not a gatekeeper. So you’re guiding me. Don’t use your position. If you have to use your position, Mr. Elmore, you’re probably not leading really well. So that reminds me, I need to toss for at least a moment the degrees I have and the certificates I’ve won, and the badges I have, and the position, and just be a person with a little bit more experience and a lot of love for them and belief in them. I always remind myself, I don’t know much about the future, but I know one thing: Gen Z’s gonna be there, so I wanna make sure I’m investing in the inevitable. So anyway, I’ll stop there, but that would be some, yeah.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: No, it’s so good, so good. And your positional, positional leadership has never really been great. It’s never been an awesome way to lead, but Gen Z just doesn’t let you get away with it. You might’ve been able to get away with it a little bit in previous generations, but they’re like, Nope. That’s not gonna fly.

And so, as you said, they bring in some really good things that I think are needed that make other generations better. Another thing I wanted to ask you aboutis youu point out in the book that Gen Z can be cognitively advanced, but behind socially and emotionally. ,So talk a little bit about how that imbalance shows up on mission teams or in any space.

Tim Elmore: So when educators measure maturation, they usually have four categories. We would add a fifth. So it’s biological growth, cognitive growth, social, and then emotional. We would add spirituality as well. They are, they’re showing up as a generation, 59 million Gen Zs in America, even more worldwide. In fact, worldwide, they are the largest generation anywhere. So again, invest in the inevitable. They’re ahead cognitively. They’re showing up. Well, they’ve stuffed more information in their head as children than ever before. They’re smart. So cognitive in their head, biologically, they’re ahead. Think about listeners, your children, they’re gonna enter puberty at younger ages. Girls are gonna have their first period younger, and boys are, it’s just all, “Whoa, this is crazy.” So all of that might lead you to be, “Oh, they’re mature.” No, no. They might be six foot two and 215 pounds, but still be a little boy socially and emotionally. Maybe not always, but maybe. 

So we’re really attempting to go after the building of their social and emotional intelligence and missionaries on the field. I would encourage you, you want them to grow spiritually, no doubt about it, but I would say invest in their emotional intelligence, their self-awareness, their self-management, their social awareness, and their relationship management. Those are critical, and they can be grown. 

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Yeah. And what are some ways they can invest in that?

Tim Elmore: That’s what I think one is Gen Z, by and large, has seen truckloads of videos. Right. So though YouTube can learn how to do whatever, but they watched a video, I think practice is huge. So let me tell you how we implemented this in our home. My wife, Pam, and I have two millennial kids. They’re both in their thirties. We adore them. They’re both gainfully employed, and we are proud now. Gen Z? Well, no, I won’t go to Gen Z yet. As we were growing up, we would have conversations at the dinner table about our children growing their emotional intelligence.

I mean, at 8 and 12 years old, we’re introducing this term to them and talking about this. Well, we were noticing, my wife and I were noticing they thought they had mastered that in fifth grade. Almost like memorizing scripture, but never practicing scripture, you know? So Pam and I thought, no, they have not mastered this. They think they have. So here’s what we did. We turned it into an apprenticeship, and we said, “In a week and a half, we’re gonna have a party at this house, and your mother and I are gonna invite our adult friends. And Bethany and Jonathan, you’re gonna host the party. And by that, I think you’re going to answer the door. You’re gonna take their coach, you’re gonna tell them if they’d like some iced tea. You’re gonna make sure they’ve met each other. If it looks like they don’t know each other, blah, blah, blah.” Well, our kids both said, “Oh my gosh, this is such a stupid idea.” But you know what they learned to do? They learned to do all those things. “Hi, Mrs. Smith. Have you met Mr. Johnson? Could I take your coat? Would you like some iced tea?” By the end of the night, they were exhausted. You know how exhausting hosting a party is. So we had a debrief time after that, actually, the next day, because it was midnight, and they realized they hadn’t mastered EQ after all.

This emotional intelligence thing is harder than they thought because it wasn’t just cognitive. So there was a case of cognitively advanced social emotion. They hadn’t done it yet. Listeners, we’re gonna have to introduce exercises and practices where we’re not just memorizing Bible verses, but practicing them. And when we do it, then we realize evangelism is much harder than we thought it was. Am I right about that? Oh my gosh. So I know I’m preaching to the choir now, but I think that’s what maybe we didn’t get to Gen Z, as well as we could have as parents, as leaders, as teachers, as youth workers. And now we need to introduce it to them as their young workers in the field today.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: You know, and I’m thinking of missionaries who have, are raising mks right now. What a great opportunity they have. I mean, that was one of the things that I think was really helpful to us for our kids, was involving them in that process of posting mission teams as you have adults coming down, including them in the conversation, like you said, having them help and set the table and bring things in and translate for a team.

All of those are really good ways to help them feel valued. As long as you’re not just, I mean, I’ve also seen parents who just throw their kids in the water kind of scare a little bit, and then they’re like, I’m never gonna be a missionary again. So I think there are ways to do it, but when they feel a part of that team, and you really pull on thei, gifts, it is, it’s remarkable.

And you know, I’m with you. I love Gen Z. It’s That’s my kids’ age. So I love them. I love their friends, and I. One thing I’ve really noticed about Gen Z is that they are on their screens so much, and everybody really is more nowadays when I sit down and have a conversation with them. Even though it can be awkward in the beginning.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Depending on the personality of the person. They, with some really good strategic questions that go beyond just the simple, small talk, just bloom like a flower because they aren’t listened to very much nowadays. And so, going back to your key, the t, in your acronym, when you can just hear them and listen to them, they just soak it up like a sponge.

For me, some of my very favorite conversations are with Gen Zs, and then you could actually hear some of the deep stuff going on inside of them. And it’s fascinating. I have learned so much from them. So there’s so much that we can do. So I love that story you shared about your kids, too. There’s another acronym ’cause we love Ackerman, right, Tim?

They’re, they’re the best. And you have one thing you talk about. Can you walk through what that means and how you see that playing out among young leaders?

Tim Elmore: So the word coping is simply a meta-analysis of the data on Gen Z, where I try to help someone wrap their arms around what the data says. So, C-O-P-I-N-G, the letter C reminds me that as a generation, with some exceptions, they’re a little cynical. Not unlike Gen X’ers back in the day. A little, I mean, and look around you. I might be cynical too if I were 19 years old right now. So I’m a little jaded. A little cynical. They know the dirt on everyone thanks to social media. So they’re cynical. 

The letter O overwhelmed me. 94% of university students in America tell us that the number one word they use to describe their life is the word overwhelmed. 94% say, I’m so overwhelmed, it’s difficult to function, and nearly one in 10 has thought about suicide in the last year. Now, maybe they didn’t pull out a weapon, but it crossed their mind. It might be easier to end it all than to face what I have to face. So just know they may be coming in, you refer to this word earlier, they might be coming into the mission field, just overwhelmed. And I don’t know what to do with them. Because we dare not give them another task. They might melt, you know, that sort of thing. 

The letter P is pragmatic. They’re far more pragmatic than their millennial predecessors. In fact, millennials were kind of idealistic. You know, let’s change the world by noon on Friday. You know, Gen Z, they have that in them because they’re young, but way more pragmatic and practical. Maybe their jadedness comes in at this point, but they know the world is a hard place. You know, that sort of thing. The letter I include is great, by the way, some of these are great, and some of them are not so great. They are the most inclusive generation of all the generations alive right now. Old and young. Now that means racial equity and justice for all, for the marginalized. This is the heart of Jesus right there. So this is not a bad thing. Capitalize on the strengths, and this is one of them. They are very, very, very inclusive.

N, Nuanced. Now, by nuanced, what I mean is that here we are putting them in categories. I would say don’t put them in categories. Nuance means that realities change. And so we need to make sure that we write in pencil, not ink, when we describe them. So here’s a good example. Gender preference. That may be changing as they go through their adolescent and young adult years. This has become a thing on university campuses. I just talked to a Division one NCAA coach who said, “Well, one of the young ladies on our softball team identified as a woman in the fall, but a male in the spring. What locker room should I send them to? What do you think? This is a problem we didn’t have when I was in college.” So nuanced means shifting, changing. I think we need to help them get a clear, clear sense of identity. We all know that, and it should be in Jesus, but I’m telling you, it was hard for me in adolescence, it’s even harder today with a variety of 50 different gender preferences, and it’s all nuanced and so forth. So just know. You don’t like it, and you don’t agree with it, but you don’t have to. This is reality, and you love them as they come.

G didn’t make somebody clean up before they took a bath. So that’s the letter. And the letter G is globally savvy. They are global citizens. They have, you know, friends in the Philippines and all over the place, and I’m sure your kids, Stephanie, would vouch for this, but very, very, very global. In fact, they know what’s going on globally at 12 years old if their mom gave them a smartphone. So just know they’re a lot more savvy than we might give them credit for being. That is a quick look at Gen Z that makes me have a heart for them. It makes me wanna capitalize on what they bring to the table. 

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Yeah, and that’s a great acronym. ‘Cause Tim, it really hits on some of the, as you said, the more challenging parts and some of the really good parts. So it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a good acronym, and I wanna come back to o for a second there, that overwhelm, we hinted at this earlier. But that meant mental health.

It’s just, it’s a huge deal to Gen Z. And sometimes you can really feel the tension there because other generations can feel like, what’s up with this obsession with. Mental health and mental health day, and my emotional health, and I can’t do that because of that, and for them it feels really like, ugh. And for Genzer, they’re, they’re going, Hey, you, you haven’t taken care of yourself.

Old boomers, they call every boomer, you know, boomers. So you guys are, all your family’s gonna fall apart. You guys are gonna burn, and you’re going at this crazy speed. But I’m not gonna live my life that way. God wants me to stay on the field and live sustainably. And so I’m gonna do it in a good way.

And so again, you see. Where the tension comes in. How are you seeing mental health playing out between the two?

Tim Elmore: Well, it’s very much what you just said. They look at older generations and say, “I don’t wanna be like that. You know, Dad ruined our family when he left Mom and worked too much, or whatever, whatever.” But, you’re right. Even on the mission field, maybe the family’s still together, but they saw workaholism and said, “I’m gonna react to that by being balanced or something other than that.” So it’s good for me to know that. Because I tend to love my work, and I know I modeled working a lot for my children. So that’s one thing. 

The other thing, though, is that the stigma is slowly leaving us to see a counselor for mental health reasons, anxiety, panic attacks, depression; those are huge issues, and they have been normalized now. It’s not just that marginalized kid over there from a broken home, it’s any kid, even privileged kids that have a lot of money. So I think the first thing we need to do is empathize with them, even if you don’t like it. And you have to tell yourself to be quiet in your brain, empathize with it because it is an overwhelming world, and it would be for us too, if we were a teenager or a 22-year-old.

But here’s the opposite side of the coin, Stephanie, that I don’t hear anybody talking about, but we need to, because they’re growing up with these terms, mental health and psychological safety, and all these things that ought to be happening because they’re young and their brain is still forming. They can weaponize some of those terms. So I know two friends who own companies here in the Atlanta area who said, “Oh, I need to sit down with my Gen Z employee and give them some corrective feedback.” Well, both Gen Z’ers said, “This is not a psychologically safe place. You’re attacking me.” Well, they weren’t attacking them. They’re giving corrective feedback, which we all need, including me, even at my age. So you see how we can, the pendulum can swing from one extreme to another. It’s quite ridiculous. So what we need to do is say, let me define psychological safety. It means both sides and all sides can be honest and transparent. Employee to boss and boss to employee without getting fired, or without being cut down or insulted. But it means we can have candid conversations. And some of you listening right now, I’m guessing you need to have a hard conversation with another team member, maybe a younger team member, and you need to make sure that you bring some definition to psychological safety. But then say, because we love each other, we’re going to speak the truth in love. So anyway, I’ll stop there. 

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: No, that’s really good. It’s really relevant too. Well, and okay, there are also these three questions that you mentioned that I thought were really powerful that Gen Z wrestles with.

Tim Elmore: So these three questions are age-old questions. Kara Powell at Fuller Seminary even talks about them, but I think they’re fundamental to every young generation, not just the new ones today. So young people are asking themselves, “Who am I? So, what’s my identity? Where do I belong? What’s my community? And then what difference do I make? What’s my purpose?” And, I think especially in faith-based places like we’re in, we ought to be helping them answer those questions overtly, not implicitly, but explicitly. And part of that is our gifts used in a field, you know, somewhere in a cross-cultural setting. But isn’t it true that we need to answer those questions if we turn 45, 50, or 55 years old? We still haven’t; we are not whole people yet. We need to continue to fight for those answers. So I’ll stop and let you volley back if you want to.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Yeah. No, and as you said, those are important questions for everybody, but Gen Z is really leaning into them so well and, and, and in making a difference and stepping out in that. It makes me think too of some things you’ve referenced in that they wanna have the chance to share things with their leaders and you, okay.

You mentioned this term that I hadn’t heard before, prefigurative Society. MargaretMeadd, where young people are the ones teaching their elderswhat does that look like practically as a lead? How can I receive from a Gen Z, or, and for Gen Zers, how can you present that in a way that’s gonna be well received?

You hinted at this a little bit with the story… how to not do it. How could you maybe do that? Well, from both sides

Tim Elmore:  Okay. If you’ll allow me to geek out just a little bit here, Margaret Mead was arguably the most famous anthropologist of the 21st century. Most missionaries have said, “Oh yeah, I’ve read Margaret Mead.” She said something just before she passed away in the 1970s that I think is coming to pass right now. She said, “Human history, first and foremost, can be divided into three societies or three periods of human history. The post-figurative society, the co-figurative society, and then the pre-figurative.” We’re in the pre today. Okay, so here’s how she would say it. If I can speak for Margaret Mead, thousands of years ago, in the agrarian cultures that existed, we lived in a post-figurative world, meaning if you’re a young person growing up, you’re gonna learn everything from the adults. In fact, the adults will download everything you know, from their lips to yours, right? In fact, if you were a little boy, you ended up doing what your father did. Good luck with that. If you’re a little girl, you did well, your mama did. Good luck with that. You married the partner they selected. 

See how post it was, you just were a victim of the customs and traditions of this culture, and you perpetuated them over and over and over and over again. Did that for many, many years. As we moved into the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, and later the Industrial Revolution, Margaret Mead said, we moved into the co-figurative society where now young and old can read and figure out life together. In fact, reason became king in that period of time. Our nation was born during this period of time. “We hold these truths to be self-evident.” Yeah. We would’ve never said that 5,000 years earlier, you did what the king said and didn’t argue. Well, now we’re arguing. Right. So now you have a say in your marriage partner. You had a say in your job and career. You had a say in what you were gonna do with your life and the values you embraced. 

Okay. Margaret Mead said way back 50 years ago, I think we’re moving into a pre-figurative world, where, because of the rapid introduction of technology, even smart technology, she saw it even back then coming. I mean, we had Future Shock written by Alvin Toffler and Star Trek was already out, and everything else. She said, “I believe we’re moving into a world where the young will figure things out quicker than the old.” And I see glimpses of that right now. So I am listening to Colin Webb, who has ideas about how GM could be better, or to my own children. I mean, this is stupid, but when something goes wrong with my smartphone, do you know who I ask to help for help? My son and daughter? 

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: All your kids, I’m sure. Yes.

Tim Elmore: Yeah, that’s right. My son, Jonathan, fixes it in five minutes. And I say to him, “How did you know to do that?” And he says to me, “How did you not know?” I mean, that is the conversation that we have now. I’m being goofy right now, but you know what I’m saying. 

Leader, let me say this to you. Yes, you have much to teach them. They’re gonna have to learn a lot. Their brain isn’t fully formed until they’re 25, 26 years old. But listen to me, you ought to be listening to them along the way. So there’s a reverse mentoring thing going on. You have something to teach. You have something to learn. Something to teach, something to learn, something to teach, something to learn. This is the new discipleship. I think because of the day we’re in, biblical truths are timeless, but some other truths are timely. And we’re gonna have to be listening. They may find out a completely different way to use technology to make sure the Kingdom of God advances in our day. And it may not be me who comes up with an idea. In fact, don’t look to me for that one. But I think it might be them. It might be your daughter, you know? So anyway, I just believe that’s where we’re heading.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: And that’s really good. What’s coming to mind, too, is the book from Strengths to Strengths, I believe that’s Arthur Brooks. And I’m thinking just even about how there’s that wisdom that’s found as you get older, and then there’s these strong ideas and creative thinking, and exactly the fluid versus crystallized intelligence and thinking about, you know, as.

If you don’t know what we’re talking about, listeners, we don’t have time to get into it. Google it, look it up. It’s amazing. But that crystallized intelligence you’ve got to, okay, crystallize is the older one. Fluid is the younger one, right? I wanna make sure I did that right. But yeah, as an older generation, what type of wisdom do I have to share?

And for those younger Gen Zers, what are some of those quick,idea-like things that fast thinking, that I’m able to share? And how do we do that with each other? And I’m. Another thought too. ’cause they are learning so fast. As you said with Margaret Mead, they are learning so quickly on so many things, and yet, wisdom you can’t get until you get a little bit older.

Like wisdom just doesn’t come. You can’t, Chad Chipp, you’re too young to do that. And so I think an important thing for older leaders is. Wanting Gen Zers to be teachable. And as you mentioned, with Gen Zers, they’re trying to trust these older leaders, but they need the wisdom that’s available to them. How can a genzer who just knows a whole heck of a lot of stuff train themselves to be teachable so they can pick up on that wisdom?

They are very much needed.

Tim Elmore: Let me start, let me share two things. Let me start with this one, though. I feel like when I think about my own children, as they moved into adulthood, it did take a couple of skin knees along the way, meaning they tried it out and they flopped. They thought it was easy to host that party, but it wasn’t as easy as I thought it was. So the skinned knee is a metaphor. I think we need to let them try it and not try to spare them from that skin knee. We need to do as much preparation as we do protecting. So experience is the best teacher in that sense. But the other thing I would say is I think we need to describe for them the difference between knowledge and wisdom, and say to Gen Z, or I need the knowledge you have picked up on social media, on smart tech, on YouTube, on whatever, but if you don’t mind, I’ll share some stuff I picked up over the years. You know, here, working at this office, this is the 45th year of my career. I’ve learned a few things that might apply to someone who’s half my age or even a third my age. So that’s where this reverse mentoring thing comes in. Old and young get together, but both are mentors in different categories. That’s where I would think our homework assignment lies, right there.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Oh yeah. Oh my gosh. There’s so much in what you shared, Tim, and I can ask a thousand more questions. I won’t. How can people find out more? Because I’m sure you’ve piqued everybody’s curiosity right now. Where can they go to pick up the book? Certainly, the future begins with Z. Where else can they find out more about what you shared today?

Tim Elmore: I really wanna serve and help. In fact, just a year and a half ago, I was with all the mission leaders of the Assemblies of God, and we had such a great conversation about this because they were going, “Got it. I know they’re the future, but they’re not the present.” You know, that sort of thing. So the book can be found at thefuturebeginswithz.com, or you could go to Amazon and pre-order anywhere, but if you go to “The Future Begins with Z,” you can get a bunch of bonus stuff for like 52 pages of bonus stuff that didn’t make the book. And then just to find me, my name, timelmore.com. You can find my site, and there’s free stuff there to download. And I do workshops and events if that’s helpful on this topic, especially. So I would be delighted. Or social media, Tim Elmore. I love to stay in touch that way on LinkedIn or Instagram, or whatever. That would be fun. 

Stephanie, I always have fun with you. You are a very fun person. 

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Aw, I feel the same.

Tim Elmore:  It was good to knock these ideas around. And it’s my war path I’m on right now. We’ve just gotta get this thing right. Well, welcome to sandpaper. 

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Tim, give me so much to chew on today. Gen Z, you’re amazing leaders. I think it’s so important for us to understand and steward these young people well. You know, one of the things I think I’ll be most chewing on is Tim’s acronyms. They are the best. C-O-P-I-N-G, what a great way to remember the different characteristics of Gen Z.

And I think my favorite one was P-E-R-K-S. Lemme see if I remember. Preferences, expectations, requirements, keys, and salary. Yes. Okay. For real, though, as you’re getting ready to have Gen Zers join your team leaders, how can you use that to help you prepare for that conversation and decide what it is you need from them?

And Gen Zer, as you prepare to become missionaries, how can you think ahead of time? What is it that I need? What is it that I just want? What are those, and how can I communicate them best? You know, I think Gen Z is carrying something that we have not always understood and it’s, and it’s a weight. As digital natives, they are exposed to some really heavy things, temptations that I don’t even think we can begin to imagine, those of us of a different generation. But it’s also important to remember that they carry something to give and to share. They have knowledge and insight, and ideas that we don’t have access to without them.

And I believe when we lead them well, they can become some of the most resilient, creative, faithful missionaries we have seen. So I just wanna encourage you to check out Tim Elmore’s latest book, “The Future Begins With Z.” You’ll find so much more on what we talked about today, and if this episode helped you, we encourage you also to subscribe, share it with a missionary who you think it would be helpful to, and make sure to send us a comment and listen to future episodes.

We are so glad that you’re part of this community, and we look forward to seeing you soon.